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It's sort of odd that punishers are willing to spend more on punishment than they are on support. [..] far beyond what they've been putting towards zaps

I think that this is only true if we forget that when the zapwar was the other way around earlier this year, roughly the same people were actively upzapping downzapped posts. But upzaps aren't recycled as much as downzaps (or as they could be if stackers were on board), and therefore upzapping is way more costly (especially when downzaps were 3x in the first war.)

I personally downzapped more in absolute numbers of sats than I upzapped in the previous 2 wars (about 2x), but, from a money-that-I-spent minus recycled-money-from-rewards/boosts p.o.v., I actually spent a lot more non-free sats the previous rounds than I am spending now. The previous rounds hurt me much harder than this one, but that only goes for me. Others got hurt real hard this round.

Stackers weren't really willing to defend a principle back then, and stackers aren't really willing to defend a principle now. It's still the same shit. Everyone is fishing for rewards and it's pathetic.

boosting the good content on SN?

I am looking forward to stackers that made up to 1M sats from boosts, to zap all the high quality evergreen posts with 1M sats so that they're ranked at the top again, and then all the pretty good posts with 500k so that they rank underneath. I'm sure that learned people also understand that upzapping good content with millions of sats is much less capital efficient than downzapping the few posts that are bad content with a few million sats.

I have proudly never downzapped anything!!

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Boomers deserve everything they have and you're just jealous of them.

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Coolio bro

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chess is pointless because computers already do it better

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FUCK YOU BROWSKI


aaaah, you didn't tell me you're retarded?!

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Still no downsats? I'll stop if you downzap me

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nono, keep going. I'm having fun.

fancy cocktails help...

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LEGO is my favorite company from Sweden

131 sats \ 3 replies \ @Scoresby 8h

Here: Stephanie Kelton is the genius voice of her generation.

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Ok, I'm sad you think that.

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68 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby 8h

not even a teeny little downzap?

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Nope.

Seems stupid. I will hold the line (and save the sats!)

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Me too.

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when the zapwar was the other way around earlier this year, roughly the same people were actively upzapping downzapped posts.

This is when I started thinking along these lines.

I actually spent a lot more non-free sats the previous rounds

Is there something like the sunk cost fallacy going on here? Once you have the sats, their source is irrelevant to what you choose to do with them.

I'm sure that learned people also understand that upzapping good content with millions of sats is much less capital efficient than downzapping the few posts that are bad content with a few million sats.

True for the immediate term. I'm not sure it's true for the long term.

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477 sats \ 6 replies \ @optimism 12h
Is there something like the sunk cost fallacy going on here?

Right now? Not for me. I'm just using the sats I get from these scams and people fighting scammers, to fight scammers. I'm sitting on today's reward sats to see how it can be used best, depending on how the situation develops, as there's a delay between the rewards side and the damage being done. Ultimately, if there's no use for the sats as down, then I'll just distribute them to good content.

The cards in the current system are stacked against any scammer. The masses win if they wanna. They just don't wanna. Which I found out back during the first war. It didn't get better since, not for upzaps and not for downzaps. And that's ok. It just shows the algo has weaknesses.

FWIW, and to your point about

the strategically correct move

I've personally been very careful to not downzap such posts into oblivion because I hate zap wars. Only need to get it back to a normal balance without the boosts, and I don't care if it's on lit for 4 hours or even a day: if 99.95% of a post's display value is boosts, then that's the threshold for down; maybe even 99.94%. In all cases, the post started with a boost. "Initiation of hostilities" was done by the poster in each case.

PS: If I lose my mind (more than I already lost it) tomorrow and were to start posting scams, I'd hope you all downzap me. I truly do. You really should. Because don't let new people fall for the scams. I've already seen some results that I really do not like to be caused by SN in general. I see people being at risk because they are attracted to the wealth of this scammer. Luckily not on my territory because then it would have been my failure.

I'm not sure it's true for the long term.

If all the top posts have 1M sats positive balance, then that's the new bar. The future content that is better than what is there, then requires at least 1M sats positive balance. Feasible with a growing money supply. Not so feasible for Bitcoin denominated posts.

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Maybe we're talking about different things. When I say downzapping may not be more capital efficient in the long-term, I mean that it doesn't not incentivize the creation of more quality posts in the same way an identical amount of upzaps would.

We likely differ on this, but I care more about people realizing that they will be rewarded for adding value here than I do about people realizing that they won't be rewarded for trying to extract value from here.

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487 sats \ 4 replies \ @optimism 12h

But they're not mutually exclusive, and here's why:

downzaps are 100% circular.

So the ultimate recipient of even more encouraging zaps for good content than was possible before can be had the next day, when the boosts have been redistributed through downzaps into rewards.

To that end, I have the perfect solution: pay rewards in CCs 🤣 (I'm actually only half joking, but still not recommending this, to be clear.)

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I've also kicked around the CC rewards concept.

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171 sats \ 2 replies \ @optimism 11h

I think it's a bad thing from a custody pov. Just like removing boosts is bad from a sybil pov. And removing downzaps is great... from a shamelessly self promoting scammer pov.

There are multiple hooks into the system as a whole and if your discussions (and my endless venting so I can cope with things) are proving anything, it is that balance is really, really hard to find.

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Since rewards are the mechanism for turning CCs into sats, we'd at least need to replace that with something.

Ultimately, I think it is better to make everything withdrawable sats that can be withdrawable sats and moving in the other direction is sort of scammy.

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233 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 11h

From what I understand, the goal for SN is to move away from CCs as much as possible. So that's probably aligned with.

217 sats \ 10 replies \ @ek 13h
Everyone is fishing for rewards and it's pathetic.

a pathetic system creates pathetic outcomes

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Personally I see that people were having fun, and that SN has survived multiple shitstorms and still has people posting valuable (and unique) content, so I wouldn't say this is a bad outcome necessarily.

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131 sats \ 2 replies \ @optimism 13h

Why are we all still alive then? We work around the most pathetic systems every day. Is there no willpower anymore? Just enslaving ourselves to short term incentives?

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133 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 13h
Why are we all still alive then?

Come on, you’re smarter than this. Why ask such misleading questions? You can be alive and still be pathetic.

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459 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 11h

It's not meant as a misleading question at all. What I'm arguing is that whenever a system is shitty then we work around it. To do the right thing. Or whatever we think is right. That's also what Bitcoin is. If the system dictates all outcomes, why are you running nix and not the windows app store?

You still have choice within a poor system. And you can choose to make a change. You can choose to not be a victim of a system and reject something, even if it hurts (and in this case even that isn't true). You're not a slave. You can effect change. Even in a broken system.

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Now you look like Darth! ahah

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29 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 13h

No, Darth doesn’t make reasonable arguments / argues in good faith.

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He thought he did and that's all you can say for your own arguments.

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He’s not very good at arguing, just like you’re not being right now! Exactly the same, hahaha!

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6 sats \ 0 replies \ @mkmloom 7h

Noted

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6 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 8h -100 sats

Humans are pathetic- get used to it!

https://m.stacker.news/157236

War is human - get used to it!

https://m.stacker.news/157237

US wealth and power are based on use of force...just ask @Cje95 and @coffeebadger

You want to live in poverty?