I saw this reply in Stacker News a few days ago:
I try not to spend a lot of time with replies on controversial topics because fewer people see them, so I created this post.
First of all, it takes a special kind of person to say, "Well, they're not all dead yet, so it's not genocide"
Second - this is a crazy talking point that has come up recently in the pro-Zionist camp. Seriously? Not all Palestinians are dead, so it's not a genocide? Not a good argument, if you ask me. And other people have done a really good job of addressing it. This one in particular is good: https://mfeldman.substack.com/p/debunking-the-zionist-claim-if-israel
Here's a few of the top claims by the Zionists, and the rebuttal from Michael Feldman
"We could have done it in an afternoon."
Claim: Israel has the capacity to kill vastly more, far faster. It didn't, so there's no intent. (from Netanyahu's own phrasing.)
Rebuttal: The 1948 Convention requires intent to destroy a group "in whole or in part" and says nothing about speed or completeness. Melanie O'Brien, of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, calls genocide a process rather than an event.
"We let humanitarian aid in."
Claim: A regime bent on extermination doesn't open crossings.
Rebuttal: The ICC, issuing warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant, found reasonable grounds they knowingly deprived civilians of food, water, medicine, fuel, and electricity from October 2023 to May 2024, and that only minimal aid was authorized — with later increases still insufficient.
"We gave evacuation warnings and safe zones."
Claim: You don't warn people you intend to destroy.
Rebuttal: Forensic Architecture found the warnings, "safe routes," and "safe zones" were repeatedly abused, pushing civilians from one unsafe area to the next — consistent with other findings that nowhere in Gaza was safe.
A couple thoughts about this....
It is my personal belief that over the last, let's say, 5 years or so, the word genocide has been used so much by so many different groups that it has become normalized and has lost the truly horrific meaning that it should have. It's the same thing with the words nazi, fascist, etc. These truly damming claims have lost the weight that they once held, and I personally find that extremely problematic. I am trying to figure out a way to word what I am about to say, but honestly none of them sound good; it needs to be brought up.
Genocides like the 2017 Myanmar's 2016/2017 Rohingya Muslim genocide, which sent 700k Rohingya into Bangladesh, and the current genocide going on in Sudan by the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), with the mass killings in El Fasher being so numerous that the pools of blood could be seen from space (6k documented in the first 3 days, with over 60k estimated to have taken place. With both of these, you see no sort of outcry, or if you do, it is a quick little blip. Frankly, it's embarrassing that we speak out about one atrocity and let another, much deadlier one occur without any sort of action (we have had military aid bans for a while now, and our statements about it clearly do not affect these situations, so if we are applying pressure on Israel, the same sort of pressure should be applied to Myanmar and Sudan.
When Hamas launched its attack and subsequent hostage situation, the attention to the hostages fell away for more eye-catching headlines that later turned out to either be straight-up lies or significantly different than what actually happened. Case in point: one of the first big things that people accused Israel of, which international groups and governments later showed was not an Israeli airstrike, was the Al-Ahli Hospital Explosion. This was one of the big turning points against Israel, in my opinion, and it was something that was later shown time and time again Israel didn't do. The other huge event at the time was when Israel stated it was going to conduct military operations into Rafah. I was on the Hill when the Biden Admin talked about how this was going to result in at least 50k deaths, and when we look at the data now, including the data that the Hamas-led Gaza Health Ministry provides, the deaths were dramatically fewer, and the incidence of death was lower than in almost all wars since the First World War when it came to urban fighting.
I also think it is a pretty big issue when the leaders of these groups and politicians fail to call out when a movement or their chants go too far. From the River to the Sea has historically been used to call for the extermination of the Jewish State. The arguments of how this was this was always Paleistian land when that was a term the Romans made up and how just based off of historical facts that the Jewish religion was the first Abrhamic religion so when the third one comes around and the two choices were convert or pay a tax (in some instance death as well but the tax thing was a much bigger thing) people changed. I mean, it's called the Arab conquests for a reason.
All this being said, both sides are in the wrong. Both sides should go back to the Peace Plan that realistically has been going rather well for Gaza since it went into effect. We know how both sides are to blame for the lack of the two-state solution, and it's time to get this done. Realistically, though, it is going to rely on the North African states and the Middle East to work together with Israel to not only disarm and stabilize Gaza and the West Bank but also provide the money needed to rebuild the strip and create industries there that create jobs. Terrorism's best recruiter is high unemployment and high poverty. If Israel just left the vacuum that would kick off and grow, it would lead us right back to the same thing again.
Myanmar and Sudan are not reliant upon US military support.
Israel is.
Myanmar and Sudan do not have vast organized lobby groups influencing both major US political parties.
Israel does.
Despite its very strong support from the US, Israels power is not unlimited.
Nor ultimately, is that of the US.
For example Israel just recently lost the power to sell its government bonds in the EU because Luxembourg has withdrawn its authorization for them.
It is getting harder for any democratic government to be or appear to be in support of Israel.
Israel must maintain at least a thin line of plausible deniability over the genocide, even if it is wearing very thin, to avoid risking the loss of what links and supports it does rely on internationally.
Israel just recently signed a major arms sales and military pact with Greece - this would not have been possible if Israel had outright slaughtered all Gazans.
Israel sees US power declining and is determined to build up its vision of regional hegemony while USA can still enable that, before that opportunity is lost.
To achieve that it needs Irans military capability obliterated and that is what Trump is seeking to provide while Israel continues to seize territory and pressure people to leave Gaza.
Both Israel and the US are losing what international support they had as this process continues but it will continue because the US petrodollar empire is in terminal decline. Israel will seek to achieve 'Greater Israel' while it can.
It is an existential crisis for them both.
Because China won the trade war.
it's not a new argument, Sam Harris and others have claimed they could flatten the Gazans for at least a decade or more and that their restraint is a sign of benevolence
this claim is just a modified version now that Gaza is flattened
for them it is a religious Bible(Torah) based law to completely destroy and annihilate the enemy, so from their perspective anything less is benevolence
The problem is that anyone who has been following this knows how absurd each talking point is.
The public has already turned against Israel and now we wait for that to manifest in a loss of political support.
Yes, maybe to "anyone who's been following this".
But you might be shocked at what a lot of Boomer opinion is on this topic.
Especially those for whom Prager U and The Daily Wire (Ben Shapiro) have been a refuge during this time of political chaos, and attacks from leftists.
I'd say a majority of this crowd are 100% true believers that Israel is our greatest ally.
It's also mainstream democrats, who come up with every excuse possible as to why democratic socialists are winning primaries while ignoring the obvious - Israeli genocide.
That’s just to keep the money flowing. They know what the real drivers are.
Oh, I’m aware of prevailing Boomer opinions on this. They won’t see any of these rebuttals though.
And... downzapped 601 sats.
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