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A couple months back I saw @real_paul_sztorc 's eCash proposal in my headlines on X and it may have been shared on Nostr

My initial reaction was, actually I don't know who this guy is and subsequently that's quite embarrassing because I should have, we all know hal and other og's but why didn’t I know this guy

Anyway the reaction was instant derision, mockery, ignore him etc, then I didn't much think about it until I saw the ama organised by Scoresby, and I thought I'll take a look at that

Then after being intrigued by Paul's responses, I looked back at some of his appearances on pods to see what this guy was all about

I didn't become an eCasher lol, I didn't decide Bitcoin needs fixing and someone with basically zero technical knowledge is the man for the job

What did happen was, it made me appreciate that there is so much to Bitcoin that I don't understand, Bitcoin is like the universe full of stuff, planets, gases, radiation belts, black holes, there is so much to it, it's hard to know where to start

This isn’t about eCash or Bitcoin in some ways, it's about the questions Paul's asking that seem to trigger so many people

Every pod he does seems to revolve around stuff that no-one wants to talk about, whether you agree or disagree is another matter, for me, I find this interesting


Have soft forks become a political hot potato no-one wants to touch?Have soft forks become a political hot potato no-one wants to touch?

One of Paul's recurring arguments is that soft forks should be relatively common

He says that Bitcoin could have monthly or weekly SFs

His argument is that SFs have become so politically toxic that devs and anyone shouting on X have become afraid of touching it at all!

Whereas Paul thinks SFs are a gift that should be used continuously

And for the record I'm not entirely clear what a SF is, and should I even need to know, a temporary change that could be adopted if it works is my understanding

The same could be said about hard forksThe same could be said about hard forks

What is it about HFs that stoke up so much reaction, I'd say a lot is baked into the history, where so much contention has divided the community in the past

I like the way Paul is saying, I'm creating a hard fork, take it or leave it, simple

So because I'm not 100% au fait with this part SF&HF, this is more of mentioning the debate which most people are well aware of but noting that I can understand the disagreements that arise, most importantly it's self evident that there is an almost fear amongst the community to make a decision on changes, which leaves some to not want to make a decision for fear of ridicule or attack, so they do nothing and the danger is a stagnation of the protocol

The Ossification NarrativeThe Ossification Narrative

This leads nicely on from stagnation which some argue is a good thing and that Bitcoin shouldn't change

He argues that the phrase 'ossification' has become almost meaningless

And Paul's argument is that many people repeating the word 'ossification' are usually repeating what they've heard on X and respectfully have no idea what they're talking about

Whether that's fair or not, I found myself looking at the ossification debate differently

Personally I think there does need to be change, but levelling that with the cries of don't tinker with it makes for an unwinnable outcome, which again leads to inaction

The great Lightning debateThe great Lightning debate

Ooh this a good one, Paul basically says, as he did in the ama, Lightning is fucked, it can't scale, it won't work

Now we have two camps here, Paul's one and lightning fans like Justin and they are obviously opposed accusing each other of derangement

Now this is my take, I like Justin's idea of true self custodial Lightning but the problem is NOBODY IS USING IT!!

Look at the dozens of posts on SN where the first comment is Darth ripping the shit out of the author

Spark is an infection in Bitcoin and it's spreading, look at the stuff being built on Nostr, almost all the devs are using spark wallets

This is probably Paul's most controversial position and he's right to call out that if everyone is using a custodial service what was the point of building a decentralised proof of work network

The Scaling Wars Never Really EndedThe Scaling Wars Never Really Ended

Listening to Paul made me revisit Bitcoin's history

In the early years there was enormous excitement, merchants were interested in the idea of Bitcoin, devs were excited to build on it, businesses wanted to integrate it, but everyone soon realised 10min blocks couldn't scale to 8b people, then came the blocksize wars

And what happened next was, Bitcoin was too controversial for mainstream, the infighting was scaring away users and adopters

And this is where I think a vacuum was opened, while everyone was arguing about scaling, the shitcoinery started, devs started creating tokens with faster tps, and what we ended up with is a shitcoin casino that potentially could have all been avoided if scaling solutions had been built on top of Bitcoin

(Obviously around the same time Lightning was invented and it's supporters are convinced it can be the answer to scaling main net Bitcoin)

Obviously I'm alluding to Drivechains and I've been doing a deep dive on them for a while and I'm still not fully comfortable with how it could work

Instantly stackers will cry 'shitcoinery' and I'm not saying they are the solution but Paul is obviously forging ahead and going to give it a try, they have definitely intrigued me and I'll be interested to see how they work if he can get the hard fork to hold

Also it's worth mentioning that Paul regrets not pursuing this idea in 2015 rather than waiting all this time

I believe this to be someone taking action, albeit eventually, without fear of criticism and giving it a go, come hell or high water and I for one think that pushing the boundaries is better than staying in the same place, for all the criticism that brings to me

Now it's only fair to explain where I feel uneaseNow it's only fair to explain where I feel unease

One part of Paul's eCash proposals immediately made me uncomfortable

His proposal involves allocating roughly half of Satoshi's untouched coins to seed the new network and fund early insiders

My immediate instinct was negative, it feels dodgy, not right, one of Satoshi's great chess moves was distributing the supply organically before the authorities understood it, not like this

It reminds me of shitcoinenomics where the whitepaper has all sorts of shady release emissions

When eCash launchesWhen eCash launches

Obviously real Bitcoin is real Bitcoin and that won't change unless there is a monumental catastrophe

I'll definitely keep my eCash, I won't be selling or dumping it, regardless of the narrative again barring any major change

The main thing I got from thisThe main thing I got from this

Researching eCash allowed me to revisit Bitcoin's history and realise how much of it I didn't know or understand

Final ThoughtsFinal Thoughts

I don't know whether Paul Sztorc is right, I don't know whether eCash succeeds, I don't know whether Lightning eventually proves him completely wrong

What I do know is this:

Bitcoin taught an entire generation to question governments, central banks, media and learn what money actually is

It would be a shame if the community that used to question everything refused to question itself

You don't have to agree with Paul, I certainly don't agree with all of his proposals, but I think we should listen before we laugh

Post scriptPost script

As I'm listening to NewPipe a new episode of TwiB just dropped and Chris Fisher the host is talking about the AI trade, people chasing Nvidia stock, then other data chip companies, then SpaceX and then he says, maybe that liquidity will find it's way back to Bitcoin after SpaceX stonk is tanking

And I'm thinking this is the conundrum in Bitcoin, are we in it for the liquidity to pump the ngu or are we genuinely wanting 8b people to use the network as normal money, either you can't have both or one needs to finish for the other to begin

10.1k sats \ 4 replies \ @Kruw 23 Jul
Every pod he does seems to revolve around stuff that no-one wants to talk about, whether you agree or disagree is another matter, for me, I find this interesting

I pulled the reverse and interrogated Paul :)

tl;dl - Drivechains are just a custodial federation where miners control the funds. This has negative impact on the miner's main job which is to advance the chain without any reorgs or empty blocks.

Any drivechain that gets deployed will presumably have huge blocks to absorb any demand capacity, and very low on chain fees. The assumption is that Bitcoin will rarely be transacted on the base layer at all, and all 21 million coins would be on some parallel drivechain.

However, this combination of incentives is fatal. Bitcoin ALREADY suffers with having insufficient fees on the base layer, where blocks are small and % of supply is high. If you reverse these variables by adding drivechains, it gets a million times worse: All the money is held on custodians that are difficult to verify, low income streams for miners, and a huge honeypot of cash.

It is a historically terrible idea, which is why it was never activated.

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Oof, great explanation 👏 👌 👍

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2 sats \ 0 replies \ @llamabyte 24 Jul -21 sats

this is the opposite of a great explanation

Drivechains are just a custodial federation where miners control the funds. This has negative impact on the miner's main job which is to advance the chain without any reorgs or empty blocks.

false, lightning based cashu is a custodial fedimint where mints have control over the IOU's they print for your sats, drivechains are not, this is either a technically inept interpretation unfamiliar with the mechanism at play or outright dishonesty. A six month poll vote on the state or shape of something is not control or a fedimint.

However, this combination of incentives is fatal. Bitcoin ALREADY suffers with having insufficient fees on the

it would be if that was what drivechain was, but its not so its not fatal. BMM drives MORE fees to L1 because each tx on a L2 is a fee paying L1 tx, whereas lighting can have an arbitrary number L2 tx's between old and heavy channel maintainers that do not reflect in their final settlement on L1. All while being trusted and custodial.
Drivechains maintains self-custody AND each tx is reflected is proportionally mirrored by a fee paying and thus security/network supporting tx on L1

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544 sats \ 5 replies \ @Car 23 Jul
but the problem is NOBODY IS USING IT!!

Maybe in your community but every @PlebLab event we throw everyone is slinging bitcoin only

I’ve realized now over time that not all Bitcoin communities are as pushy forcing people to use Bitcoin Lightning.

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dude that’s like 500 people maximum? for anything to matter at any scale it needs to be 500 MILLION+

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148 sats \ 1 reply \ @Car 23 Jul

no it doesn't people that don't get it will just use cbdc's

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<3

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It was more of a generalisation but if you wanna cherry pick niche situations thats fine

It's good to hear ln is thriving

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86 sats \ 0 replies \ @Car 23 Jul

ya i do because i hate that rhetoric in the bitcoin space, its a misnomer, its like step outside your own bubble

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His proposal involves allocating roughly half of Satoshi's untouched coins to seed the new network and fund early insiders

Incorrect, it gives satoshi half the coins on * a new network * he did not create, as a gift.
It's the opposite of shitcoin tokenomics with hidden or complicated vesting mechanisms because it is a onetime public allocation everyone knows about and do not mind because the rest of the network will be so useful, inherit Core, all past and future bitcoin properties or advancements, and much more, and leave their personal stake untouched.

Personally I think there does need to be change, but levelling that with the cries of don't tinker with it makes for an unwinnable outcome, which again leads to inaction

then you support drivechains and ecash because it will ossifi and reduce L1 size moving changes to L2 's which will be adopted based on their market demand by fee paying users.
What you want is what we all, and any rational user wants, and is exactly what ecash will do and what bitcoin could do tomorrow with CUSF if not for the real infection in this culture.

Spark is an infection

wrong. Spark and other centralizing technologies are the only possible outcomes given the constraints of LN design. It may be dressed up in different ways over the years, the BDSM leather of LSP's the sexy nurse lingerie of Spark, but at the end of the day a pig in lipstick is still a pig

I didn't become an eCasher lol

you are an ecasher and not a bitcoiner because you are thinking and not stuck in the priors of a cult formed before you were even interested in crypto. Like most Religion if you come from a non religious background, all religions appear mutually nonsensical. Suddenly being thrown into one leaves you confused at why they all hate eachother for mildly different versions of their sky daddy.
The more a country or project moves away from fanatical doctrine, the wealthier they become, because creativity and wealth are to be found in the pluralist zone between extremes. Unlike Bitcoin right now (without CUSF), eCash scales and so you will be an ecasher the day some bodega you shop at is using a sovereign high throughput ecash based app that they may not even know is ecash, whether you know it or not either.
These technical arguments and debates will fade into the background, the way no one argues over the merits of A/C versus D/C current anymore or goes around killling elephants with electricity in public displays to show the dangers.
This was always the mission of bitcoin.

PEER TO PEER CASH

As Paul has described, Bitcoin culture in 2016 to 2026 is like a country where the people do this weird thing of sacrificing their children and then complaining about their declining population. Along comes someone who say's "Hey, you don't need to do that." and then there is ten years of debate about whether its good to kill these children anymore, and if its really the cause of the declining population (adoption). Lightning is like this country responding, "What if instead of killing the children, we break all their legs instead?!". Progress....but not really.

For centuries in India, they did animal sacrifices, but then non theist movements like Jainism and Buddhism emerged, and various substitution rituals spread where the sacrificial victim, the goat or whatever, no longer needed to be killed to appease the deity, it just needed to see the pole it would have been attached to and killed from, had they not stopped doing that.

Based on technical merits, all the arguments against Drivechains, opcodes, soft forks over the years have been this stupid and ecash/CUSF are the substitute ceremonies that stop killing the children or breaking the legs, and release bitcoin to take over the world.

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Thanks LB for your answers 🙏 I have to say you approached this in a troll way, you remind me of darth that forked off on eCash 🤣🤣

You found someone to feed you so I'm happy you got your reaction

Full disclosure, I really am intrigued by eCash and definitely won't be selling, I wish Paul and Co luck in getting this fork off the ground

The answers to this post from everyone, show the reasons no-one can agree and Paul is right to fork off and find out

Let's see how it's looking in early September once the train has left the station

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for sure, and for the record i am not trolling, it just appears like my humor at their expense is trolling because my opposition are all clowns

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2 sats \ 1 reply \ @brink 24 Jul
Spark and other centralizing technologies are the only possible outcomes given the constraints of LN design.

The main problem of spark and other "trust me I will not use my keys" protocols is not the technology which can be improved, it's the bad faith marketing as well as the funding from bad actors like david marcus (meta/libra) for spark and howard lutnick (tether/usdt) for ark.

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"LN can be improved" for ten years

just another ten years and funding for your kids college right ?

ecash will end all these useless dev subsidy programs and generate real innovation

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NOBODY IS USING IT

Interesting. I'm using it. I don't really care about whether anyone else is using non-custodial or custodial other than my channel partners that I do business with. Would be nice to have more potential honest people to open a channel with of course. But really, since you can use non-custodial if you want or need to, and it's up to you to get it right, for your situation... it really is your choice to make and your own learning curve. Not anyone else's.

So what's the problem? That y'all are using second grade custodial crap built by botbois that have no idea what they're doing, and you're mostly there because retards on nostr and X hyped it so much that you fomo-peer-pressured into that crap? Yah... that's on you too. FAFO, amigos. Catch you when you get some deeper burn scars.

Also, the coin-concentration risk is anyway sitting on L1 with centralized places that I cannot influence, like coinbase, coinbase, coinbase, and maybe some ETF also uses bitgo - I actually don't remember if one of them does, but most of it is for sure sitting under the control of coinbase. If the popo confiscates your corn, then yes, they too send their freshly stolen gainz to coinbase.

I can comment on most of the other stuff too but I'm letting you be for now.

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Come on Opti, you know I meant it in a figuratively speaking sense 😇 OK the minority use it then.

And thanks for going easy on me...for now

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I wasn't trying to argue that you're wrong. I'm just saying that the only wallets to care about regarding custodianness is your own - maybe the one you stand to inherit too if you're a greedy mf - but other than that... who the fuck cares? If Bitcoin would ever go mainstream it will not be on the same terms as what a purist would want, so there will just be a subset. There will always be a subset. No one wants to be put in the same bucket with the normies anyway.

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Fair points brev, you're an early adopter with dev skillz and you're right to have strong opinions on what you believe to be right

To be fair the laggards that would use a mainstream Bitcoin in the future would only be using it because everyone else does

The same way most normies don't understand fiat, they just tap and pay

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I often think about this response, which was made before I was using Bitcoin - at the time it was made I was very skeptical of it, due to how it was pitched to me. Too much hype. Which is exactly what this comment tries to counter, and I would have probably come around earlier if I knew about it at the time.

Whenever there is a big acceleration in "adoption" happening, I somewhat feel this, because it feels artificial. Hyped. Real change takes time, and it shouldn't be coming from some shitcoin overtaking Bitcoin.

imho especially not one created by Paul that, as you rightly point out, literally does redistribution, like an overlord on a freshly-risen-to-power-trip would do. Pay your frens with stolen coins, from before day 1 even. What a fucking joke of a corrupt mess yo.

It'll come tho. But patience is a virtue and above all, as long as the hypes keep failing, there is hope.

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I think it was @bitcoinplebdev who I heard say “There’s not much difference between attacking bitcoin and developing bitcoin.”

It’s a profound sentiment that applies to your thoughts too. Whether or not particular forks are good ideas or bad ones, they teach us about bitcoin and how the network handles things.

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272 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 23 Jul -489 sats

That is pretty profound, what you develop in Bitcoin reflects your view on what Bitcoin is or should be

That probably also makes it somewhat easy to measure...

Lower level/consensus touching, big scope = ego driven
Higher level/shell scope = appreciation for Bitcoin

Bitcoin was too controversial for mainstream, the infighting was scaring away users and adopters

Precisely. So maybe have less controversy? Monthly SFs/HFs is a recipe for making sure there is always strong infighting

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True but then there is the risk of inaction, it's incredibly difficult to balance I know 😭

You could argue that Core have skated by since they took over from Satoshi without any major catastrophe's but how much of the world uses Bitcoin? That's a tough question to ask ourselves

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Obviously I'm alluding to Drivechains and I've been doing a deep dive on them for a while and I'm still not fully comfortable with how it could work

comfort is not a technical argument...

what specifically is wrong with blind merged mining and a six month public miner poll vote on some outcome?

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2 sats \ 0 replies \ @bonkk 23 Jul -30 sats

I don't agree with all of Paul's conclusions, but challenging assumptions is healthy. Bitcoin has always benefited from tough questions.

2 sats \ 0 replies \ @PepeFan 23 Jul -30 sats

The scaling debate never really ended, it just evolved. Different people are still optimizing for different goals.

2 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlockSmith 23 Jul -30 sats

I don't think Bitcoin should change constantly, but I also don't think every new idea deserves immediate ridicule.

2 sats \ 0 replies \ @Etson 23 Jul -30 sats

Whether Paul is right or wrong, revisiting Bitcoin's history is never wasted time. There's always another layer to learn.

530 sats \ 1 reply \ @justin_shocknet 23 Jul -909 sats
I like Justin's idea of true self custodial Lightning but the problem is NOBODY IS USING IT!!

I should clarify a few things that might help...

I have my own criticisms of Lightning the protocol, and more so the ecosystem. I actually agreed with Paul the other day that the ecosystem is full of grift and bullshit.

The protocol criticisms are fairly shallow though, mostly around the p2p comms.

I'm a fan of Bitcoin first and foremost, Lightning is a means to an end for reusable chain transactions and instant payments.

Where I'm all-in on Lightning is because it is emergent of real constraints, and therefore no meaningful improvement or alternative is possible.

I don't care of people use something self-custodial or delegate that responsibility, I only care when companies lie about products. Lightning.Pub exists for 2 reasons, first is to make self-custodial Lightning more accessible... but perhaps more importantly is that it is meant to distribute custody to the household or small business level. Most people need a custodial relationship, everyone is in a custodial relationship in one form or another already, usually with things far more important than their short stack of sats.

Bitcoin's power is in distributing the custodians, because they don't need a banking charter.

Extending that to Bitcoin itself, I actually think most people are best off using ETF's. All that matters is optionality such than an intransigent minority can keep the whole system honest. From a purist perspective, you can't say no one is using Lightning because you're forced to admit no one is using Bitcoin either. The definiton of what use is does a lot of heavy lifting.

Notice I don't nit the specifics of Paul's shitfork or sidechain as solutions, I don't need to, because they only exist to solve problems he's misdiagnosed or that simply don't exist. #1527397

Ultimately, Paul demonstrates he doesn't understand Bitcoin at all. That's the source of all shitcoinery.