pull down to refresh
123 sats \ 14 replies \ @Undisciplined 26 Nov \ on: The part of Bitcoin you *have* to trust bitcoin
I think this axiom is too broad and vague.
Physical reality is a system that the state does not control, for instance.
The state is merely a collection of men. Its power is bounded by the capabilities of finite beings, however grand those may be.
The state is merely a collection of men.
The collection of men is more powerful than the sum of its parts.
reply
Yes, but not infinitely so
reply
I understood Voskuil's point here to be that we have to assume that we can resist, there's no real evidence that a p2p network like bitcoin will be durable in the face of an consistent effort by strong state. It's something we just kinda have to guess at, or take on faith.
reply
I mean...there is kind of some real evidence right, as Satoshi pointed out. They've basically given up on doing anything about torrenting and despite many attacks the Pirate Bay remains active to this day. Every once in awhile some big outfit gets busted but it doesn't affect anything.
reply
TOR and Pirate Bay have a track record of not being shut down, but it is also possible that states have never really perceived them as worth shutting down. I realize that I can make this argument about anything, so it's kinda a cheap shot, but our evidence that a p2p network can resist state control has never really been tested, as far as I can tell.
reply
Tor and Pirate Bay have a track record of not being shut down
Yesterday I thought "that's correct", but I slept on it and now I think "that's incorrect."
Why: Both TPB1 and Tor have in the past been shut down partially, and they fight back. Bitcoin wasn't attacked like that fully, and the surefire way to get around this under oppressive regimes is use a VPN - or lift off Tor's work.
it is also possible that states have never really perceived them as worth shutting down.
They have definitely been targeted:
Tor:
- Early: Presentation listing occurrences up to 2014
- Recent: Russia, 2021, Iran, 2022 and other ongoing, see presentation from Dingledine, slide 54 & onward
TPB:
Bittorrent generic:
- US & EU, 2007-2008 - no longer in place, largely killed by net neutrality laws in EU but potentially to be activated again in the US due to y'alls newfound love for oppression (#847717).
our evidence that a p2p network can resist state control has never really been tested, as far as I can tell.
It has been tested on tor AND bittorrent and with active countermeasures, it can be beaten. It's a cat and mouse game, but you want to be the mouse, not the cat. The same category of methods an orditard would use to get around fIlTeRs are available to us all to get around state attacks.
If we want to win, we will win. It could be costly though.
Footnotes
-
TPB is a centralized database of torrent files / magnet links, basically a centralized entrypoint. It's a service, like a single instance among Bitcoin's DNS seeds. The best thing about TPB is that if it ultimately gets censored and its operators jailed, someone else can just start "The Pirate Cove" and run their own discovery service; it's fully replaceable. So apples-to-apples would be comparing
bittorrenttoBitcoin, not TPB. As a protocol, Bitcoin has more centralization pressure than bittorrent, because you need to sync up with a global state, whereas torrents can be ran by anyone, anywhere, no initial peers required. You can paste your torrent on pastebin and get leechers. This is also why using Bitcoin as a file sharing system is kind of retarded as there are multiple superior protocols for this. ↩
reply
That’s what I don’t agree with. I don’t see why we can’t assess what the state can and can’t do.
It’s complicated for sure but ultimately it should rest on the same axiom set as our other economic theories.
reply
I look at the world and I believe the state is capable of shutting down internet access. I believe the state is capable of closing all centralized on and off ramps from bitcoin to fiat. I believe the state is capable of identifying people who have used bitcoin and using violence to put them in prison. I believe the state is capable of seizing mining equipment or removing miner access to power. I believe the state is capable of pushing all bitcoin usage to paper bitcoin and putting such onerous kyc requirements on bitcoin usage that few people use it.
I believe a lot more about the state, but what I don't know is whether we have reached a point where the state can't do these things anymore (because bitcoin usage has become so widespread) or whether the state simply has no appetite for it. It's also possible that these are the same thing...until a regime change.
reply
Some states can do those things to some people.
Can any one state do those things to all people (aside from destroying the entire world)?
I don’t believe there is any nation (and it would obviously have to be America) that can pull this off.
reply
we can definitely assess
reply
reply
If the axiom of resistance is your favorite, the threat-level paradox is mine.
reply
Its conclusion is my favorite thing to work on mitigating. To do this, one travels outside their comfort zone of advanced economies. I've spend over a third of my life in hostile places. Hostile to me, hostile to freedom, hostile to the common people. Learned a lot. Made some change (but not enough.)
As I shared yesterday I may spend a couple of years participating in advanced economies to fund the next and probably final round. It's not what I love, but ultimately, it may help me do what I love. Which is undermining the overseer.
reply